tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post844787591412989083..comments2024-03-17T14:21:16.214-04:00Comments on Truthbomb : Featured Article: Did Morals Evolve? by Greg KouklChadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16449550583016519343noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-5158376232077470082012-07-12T05:05:07.164-04:002012-07-12T05:05:07.164-04:00Oh, and an extra point that I doing think has been...Oh, and an extra point that I doing think has been mentioned elsewhere: it's pretty easy to 'breed' more social behaviour into dogs in just a few generations. In other words, you can quickly breed traits like friendliness and docile behaviour into dogs. <br /><br />Given that, I don't see the problem in the possibility that what we view as moral instincts or behaviours could in principle have arisen in our own species through natural selection.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-64332118978442666502012-07-05T09:39:15.745-04:002012-07-05T09:39:15.745-04:00Chase, your position is that you make the value of...Chase, your position is that you make the value of any human entirely contingent on the existence of God, no? If you can imagine a hypothetical universe identical to this one, with the same people, with the same hopes and dreams and capacity for suffering and happiness... but just without a God, you would say these people were worthless? Or would you still believe these people's lives had some kind of value?<br /><br />[NB: If you answer that you can't answer as your God exists in every possible universe, even hypothetical ones, I'm afraid this will strike me as avoiding the question.]<br /><br />And to head off a POSSIBLE question from you regarding my last post, if you start asking me about the worth of people I'm not even aware of, or conjecture about what happens if when I die, there's no-one left who values other people's lives, then the question (and answer) doesn't really change from my perspective. <br /><br />That is to say, you're still asking ME for MY opinion on the worth of people. Even if it's in a situation where I'm not around, you're still asking me NOW (when I am around) if these people are valuable are not. And given that I see lives as valuable, I have to say yes. In a quantum way (think I'm using the right word), the situation is altered simply by being viewed. I can't look at an even hypothetical life and say 'it's worthless', because I don't see it as such. I view it as valuable, even if it's a life that won't start till after mine ends.<br /><br />If you want to say that I'm saying the life is 'inherently valuable', then go ahead. But I don't invoke a God to explain this, nor do I think that invoking a God adds anything to the concept of 'inherently valuable'.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-30410885724104733222012-07-05T07:50:09.184-04:002012-07-05T07:50:09.184-04:00Chase, I'm not fussed about 'last word'...Chase, I'm not fussed about 'last word'. Keep responding or stop responding. I'm also happy for someone to say "I'm not posting any more", and then change their mind if they feel they have something more to say, or change their mind or whatever.<br /><br />"That being said, is the second sentence how you define inherent value?"<br /><br />No - I don't really see 'inherent value' as making sense as a concept, as it seems to say something can have value without actually having value to anybody. Your own definition of 'inherent value' includes the notion that the object of the term is valuable to God - so it still fits my own understanding of simple 'value', as opposed to so-called 'inherent value'.<br /><br />"it logically follows that if I am not valued by anyone (myself included due to depression and/or thoughts of suicide), according to your view I do not have value."<br /><br />Chase, I promise that you will always have value to me, even if you get depressed or suicidal! Hope this clarifies.<br /><br />"So, by your own logic you have to concede that my comment is indeed not word salad, but valuable."<br /><br />It can be valuable to you Chase. That does not necessarily make it coherent!<br /><br />2. "Where do man’s moral obligations come from in a universe without God? "<br /><br />I don't get the meaning of the second part of the sentence. It's like saying "Why do apples ferment if Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone in shooting JFK". It seems to be a non sequitur. What difference does positing a God make to the question of where our moral obligations come from? <br /><br />I ask this because if I can understand what assumptions or logical argument you make in order to say where our moral obligations come from WITH a God, then I'm guessing that the same assumptions and arguments can quite logically explain them WITHOUT a God.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-67854034894057157532012-07-04T21:19:11.914-04:002012-07-04T21:19:11.914-04:00Hi Andrew,
I first want to say that I am respondi...Hi Andrew,<br /><br />I first want to say that I am responding to more clearly state what the main purpose of my last comment was. The last word is still yours. I was trying to determine your position on the two main areas of discussion:<br /><br /><b>1. Value</b><br /><br /><i>I think your concept of 'inherent value' is incoherent. Value means 'is valued by something'.</i><br /><br />When you say <i>something</i>, I assume you mean someone, because earlier you stated: <i>Anything valued by someone by definition has value.</i> It is nonsense to say that a thing can value anything. For example, a rock cannot value the ground.<br /><br />That being said, is the second sentence how you define inherent value? Or is this just how you are defining value? This is the position I have been trying to understand. I have already stated that it seems to me, from earlier comments of yours on this thread, that you do not think anything has inherent value. For example, you stated:<br /><br /><i>How can you describe 'value' be an essential quality of a thing without making any reference to a person or thing that it has value to?</i><br /><br />If this is your position, then it logically follows that if I am not valued by anyone (myself included due to depression and/or thoughts of suicide), according to your view I do not have value. Please clarify if this is your position.<br /><br />Also, I find it interesting that you label my comment as <i>word salad</i>. This means you do not value it. But I value it. So, by your own logic you have to concede that my comment is indeed not <i>word salad</i>, but valuable. Is this your position?<br /><br /><b>2. Moral Obligations</b><br /><br />Where do man’s moral obligations come from in a universe without God? Do you even think mankind has moral obligations? These are the other areas I was looking for clarity on from you.<br /><br />Again, if I did not make all of this clear earlier I apologize. <br /><br />I look forward to hearing your positions on these two areas.Chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00320120398609061987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-3631256915814325492012-06-26T10:13:17.219-04:002012-06-26T10:13:17.219-04:00Chase, I'm just trying to address every questi...Chase, I'm just trying to address every question you say I've not answered.<br /><br />You said: <br />"...you are not addressing some of my questions and requests for clarification (like what obligation you were referring to earlier "<br /><br />I've gone back to every reference I made to 'obligation'. I believe I only ever used the term in response to your OWN use of it. I think you started questioning me using the term after my second post, which was:<br /><br />"Chase, where does the obligation come from if there is a God?"<br /><br />I was actually responding to you saying this: "Morality under the Christian worldview is based on an obligation to God. I think it follows that if the Christian God exists then mankind has an obligation to him for he is a moral being with transcendent, ultimate authority over his creation."<br /><br />So I was using the term only to try to make sense of your own use of it in your above assertion. And I've already gone into why I don't accept the coherence of that assertion in my earlier post today.<br /><br />I hope this leaves all your questions answered. Notwithstanding you saying the conversation has run its course, I would welcome any further questions you have, or anything you feel I have not yet addressed.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-65903850106405907832012-06-26T09:34:53.218-04:002012-06-26T09:34:53.218-04:00Also just noticed this.
Me: "I don't kn...Also just noticed this. <br /><br />Me: "I don't know, but either way my argument didn't rest on them being self-evident truths."<br />You: "Yes, it does. You stated:<br />Regarding the meanings or right and wrong, survival of the species are only tangental to their meaning. The concepts [based upon the previous sentence, I assume by concepts you mean the meanings of right and wrong] rest on axioms [self-evident truths] of fairness and shared values.""<br /><br />You can translate 'axiom' as 'self-edvident truth', but that's not an essential definition.<br /><br />Axiom: "An axiom is a premise or starting point of reasoning. As classically conceived, an axiom is a premise so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy. The word comes from the Greek ἀξίωμα 'that which is thought worthy or fit,' or 'that which commends itself as evident.' As used in modern logic, an axiom is simply a premise or starting point for reasoning"<br /><br />You and I can discuss the relative qualities of films or wines or books or country walks, and have quite coherent conversations on all these subjects without believing there exists 'objectively true' answers to any of these questions. <br /><br />However, we do need to share basic axiom relating to quality. For films we will need to share basic ideas of what constitutes quality. These will be the starting points of the discussion, but they are generally unspoken. These types of discussion happen all the time, and they don't tend to start with one person ensuring the other isn't just evaluating based on the number of nude scenes.<br /><br />So ideas like 'acting quality', 'enjoyability', 'script quality' may all play a major part, despite none of them being 'objective' markers of quality, and despite none necessarily being objectively provable concepts in themselves.<br /><br />So my point stands in my answer: "I don't know, but either way my argument didn't rest on them being self-evident truths."<br /><br />"Please clarify for me whether or not you are holding that you have inherent value and also whether or not you agree with my definition of inherent value."<br /><br />To clarify: I think your concept of 'inherent value' is incoherent. Value means 'is valued by something'.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-21444553984145059192012-06-26T09:05:58.841-04:002012-06-26T09:05:58.841-04:00I missed this from your earlier post:
"If th...I missed this from your earlier post:<br /><br />"If the Christian God exists then mankind has an obligation to him for he is a moral being with transcendent, ultimate authority over his creation."<br /><br />I replied that this is basically just saying that man hase an obligation to God because God has quality X, with X being defined as 'conferring obligations on man'.<br /><br />You then replied this: "...it comes from God who is a moral being (righteous, loving, just, merciful, gracious, compassionate, etc. I did not think I had to define what moral meant. I apologize.)"<br /><br />We're talking meta-ethics, no? Neither of us should be assuming that traits such as 'righteous, loving, merciful' etc are objectively moral and obligation-causing, as that's what's being debated in the first place. <br /><br />If you're asserting that a being that embodies these traits is axiomatically moral and carries moral authority, then you're begging the question. <br /><br />In other words, you can't use God having these traits as being proof of his authority, as those traits being moral supposedly flows from His authority in the first place!<br /><br />So we've got:<br />a) God has authority because he is a moral being<br />b) Moral means the following traits x, y, z<br />c) These traits x, y, z are moral because they are the traits of an authoritative moral being.<br /><br />Again, this argument is question-begging, circular. Unless you just want to say that those traits are objectively moral, axiomatically moral even without reference to God, in which case you must allow atheists to say "Action b is immoral because it breaches ideas such as being righteous, loving, just, merciful, etc - surely I don't have to define what immoral means?".<br /><br />My previous post got no confirmation when I submitted it. If this post comes through and the other one doesn't, then I'll re-type the first.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-72762254460971839942012-06-26T08:57:24.889-04:002012-06-26T08:57:24.889-04:00Chase, I didn't realise you still held there w...Chase, I didn't realise you still held there were questions I hadn't answered. I'll do my best now to directly address the points in your last post.<br /><br />"human value is rooted in the Christian God, an ultimate, transcendent, eternal, self-sufficient, unchanging, moral being, who has created them with value"<br /><br />I don't know what you mean by 'created with value', or even if it is a coherent concept. By what mechanism does one 'create something with value'? How does this differ in practical terms from creating something without value? You go on to suggest that what you actually mean is simply that God values us:<br /><br />"Finally, I stated that each human is valuable to God and therefore each human has value regardless of what any other human says or does."<br /><br />This just comes down to the same definition of valuable as I was using then. I said something was valuable because it is valued by someone, and in the above quote you appear to agree, but you make that someone God. Your definition is different only in degree, not in kind - the value is somehow better because we either change our mind or eventually die off whereas the God doesn't. I don't see why this makes it any more 'inherent'.<br /><br />"I stated that something that has inherent value has that value in and of itself. Value is an essential characteristic of the thing. It did not get the value from something else. I think we agree on the definition of inherent value."<br /><br />Possibly - but you deny that humans have that quality. You go on to say that the value of humans is derived from us being created by and valued by God. Remove this and you remove the value. Your answer to this is that this removal couldn't actually happen:<br /><br />"The Christian God will not stop valuing humans for to do so would be contradictory to his nature since humans are made in his image. "<br /><br />Regardless of your claim of the impossibility of its removal - you're still making the value contingent.<br /><br />You also say this: " That nature is that humans are made in the image of God and so value is part of human nature and therefore humans are inherently valuable."<br /><br />Sorry, this seems like word salad rather than a logical argument or syllogism.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-35313779600615025092012-06-21T19:31:30.059-04:002012-06-21T19:31:30.059-04:00Hey Andrew,
I notice by the way that by inherent ...Hey Andrew,<br /><br /><i>I notice by the way that by inherent value you mean valuable to God. This doesn't seem inherent to me - it suggests that if God hypothetically stopped valuing you, you'd stop being valuable. This isn't 'inherent value', it's contingent, as you're saying it's subject to God valuing you. Inherently valuable in the way you seem to mean would surely mean it was valuable regardless of whether a God existed or not?</i><br /><br />In my first comment on this thread, I stated that something that has inherent value has that value in and of itself. Value is an essential characteristic of the thing. It did not get the value from something else. <b>I think we agree on the definition of inherent value.</b><br /><br /> I then stated that if God (by God I meant the Christian God) does not exist then nothing has inherent value. For only God (as Christians define him; i.e. self-sufficient) can have value in and of himself (inherent value). Finally, I stated that each human is valuable to God and therefore each human has value regardless of what any other human says or does. The value was not what was given by God to humans, but it was their <b>nature</b>. That nature is that humans are made in the image of God and so value is part of human nature and therefore humans are inherently valuable. Also, because it is based in an ultimate authority (God), the value can be fully enforced consistently and continuously and will stay the same consistently and continuously. It is an <b>ultimate</b> value. The Christian God will not stop valuing humans for to do so would be contradictory to his nature since humans are made in his image. <br /><br />Also, we can see the concept of enforcing value in the diamond example you provided. Diamonds in and of themselves are just rocks, but because an authority (human government) attributes value to them and can enforce that value, they have value, but not inherent value. But because human government is not an ultimate authority, the value of diamonds can change, and they do change, because their value is subject to human opinion. The value they have is also <b>relative</b>. Relative to humanity. <br /><br />You, an authority, attribute value to yourself. So, you have value, but not inherent value by the mere fact that the value was <b>given</b> to you. But because you are not an ultimate authority, the value of you can change, and it does change, because your value is subject to your opinion. The value you have is also <b>relative</b>; relative to you; relative even more so than diamonds, because although you have the authority to declare yourself valuable you do not have the ability to enforce it. You could appeal to human government to enforce your value, but even then it is still relative value as seen from the diamond example above and just by taking a look at history. Governments have changed the value of human beings.<br /><br />We both agree that human beings are valuable. I think I am perfectly rationale in selecting the Christian worldview as the best explanation for why they are <b>inherently</b> valuable. And I have provided why I have made that selection (human value is rooted in the Christian God, an ultimate, transcendent, eternal, self-sufficient, unchanging, moral being, who has created them with value). You have not provided me with a good reason (human value is rooted in changing human opinion?) to select your worldview, which I am assuming is atheism/naturalism, as the best explanation for why human beings are <b>inherently</b> valuable. <br /><br /> I also feel like our discussion is getting circular and that you are not addressing some of my questions and requests for clarification (like what obligation you were referring to earlier and where the obligation comes from and whether or not humans are inherently valuable or if you agree with my definition of inherent value), so you may have the last word if you like.<br /><br />Respectfully.Chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00320120398609061987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-31004197174190018292012-06-21T12:45:27.351-04:002012-06-21T12:45:27.351-04:00Hello again Geoffrey,
I am glad to pick up our di...Hello again Geoffrey,<br /><br />I am glad to pick up our discussion again. I hope everything is well since our last conversation.<br /><br /><i>In this world, no. However, had the kinds of behavior you described actually led to greater survival, then we would've eventually considered them to be moral.</i><br /><br />So, on your view, stealing, murdering, and injustice could have been moral.<br /><br /><i>Your choice of words make it seem like you just need for there to be “something to answer to.” It might be an interesting experience for you to just pretend for a while that there's nothing to answer to out there.</i><br /><br />I <b>do</b> think of this while I have these types of discussions. If there is nothing to answer to <i>out there</i> then I am not under any obligation to anyone. I can do as I please and if I do choose ‘moral’ behavior it is only an instinctive response. Not a result of an obligation/duty to anybody.<br /><br /> <i>It's your burden of proof that there exists some other supernatural obligation out there somewhere.</i><br /><br />I do not think that there is a burden of proof on either of us. We both agree that moral obligations exist. We are therefore examining which worldview, atheistic or theistic, makes the most sense of that existence. You have already conceeded on this thread that the Christian worldview makes sense of our moral obligations. I do not think you have shown that the atheistic worldview does the same. The story you provided did not show that ‘morality’ under naturalism is anything beyond survival. The story I provided made this clear, because even you used survival (not any type of obligation the man had towards the people he stole from, or the man he killed, or his son, or his workers, or even society as a whole) as the determining factor when deciding whether or not to label the stealing, murdering, and injustice done by the man in my story as ‘moral’. <br /><br /><i>Sorry for my terseness, I'm a bit tired.</i><br /><br />No worries. I think though that our conversation has again run its course. You may respond if you like (And within your own timing. I do not want you wearing yourself out because you feel pressured to get a response to me) to once again try and demonstrate how atheism/naturalism makes the most sense of our moral obligations. However, from the above I think you would agree that it is perfectly rationale for me to select the Christian worldview as making the <b>most</b> sense of our moral obligations. <br /><br />Respectfully.Chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00320120398609061987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-41060980628019627732012-06-17T22:21:19.548-04:002012-06-17T22:21:19.548-04:00Chase,
“Is this still morality?”
In this world, ...Chase,<br /><br />“Is this still morality?”<br /><br />In this world, no. However, had the kinds of behavior you described actually led to greater survival, then we would've eventually considered them to be moral. So, that which we consider moral is relatively based in part upon that which conferred evolutionary advantages.<br /><br />By the way, I hope my point of the story wasn't missed – behaviors, emotions, and ideas that had their roots in survival eventually blossomed into other realms of life not directly dealing with survival. For example, “justice” is no longer about group survival only, but rather it has become an end in and of itself. We've realized justice is good even if it doesn't promote survival directly.<br /><br />“So, should we be evaluating actions based on whether they are “moral” or “immoral” or based on whether they are “evolutionarily advantageous” or “evolutionarily disadvantageous”?”<br /><br />No, rather - certain moral origins can be explained by having, at one point, an evolutionary advantage. <br /><br />“If so, prehaps person A kills person B before they go for a swim because it gets them “warmed up” for their swim and makes them perform better which, in turn, increases their health and survivability.”<br /><br />Such behavior did not increase the survivability of the group. Such injustice is detrimental to social cooperation. Since evolving the emotion of fairness, we've also learned that fairness is valuable in and of itself – even if being fair doesn't promote survivability of our group. But fairness/justice are complicated and much more could be said.<br /><br />“My quotes of you show that other species have the potential to “recognize morality” <br /><br />I did not contradict myself. Here's why: the phrase “other species” does not mean “all species.”<br /><br />“Natural selection IS partial to species that act in beneficial ways, so, to answer your question, it accomplished “such a partial act towards man” by partially selecting the moral actions of humankind over many centuries, thus building into us our moral intuitions, emotions, and other biological responses to certain actions.”<br /><br />“Its seems to me that humans have no obligation to the “morality” established by natural selection.”<br /><br />We have obligations put upon us by other people and ourselves. It's your burden of proof that there exists some other supernatural obligation out there somewhere.<br /><br />“does not have to answer to natural selection”<br /><br />Your choice of words make it seem like you just need for there to be “something to answer to.” It might be an interesting experience for you to just pretend for a while that there's nothing to answer to out there. Such exercises do help in discussions like this. <br /><br />“Why would they even use such terms as “right” or “wrong”?”<br /><br />You've implied the terms “right” and “wrong” only refer to actions for which we must “answer to” somebody, presumably your God. If you stop interpreting those words like a religious person, then they can be interpreted naturalistic-ly. But trying to do both at once will not make sense, as you've noticed.<br /><br />Sorry for my terseness, I'm a bit tired.<br />GeoffGeoffrey Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01688281186281150602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-40147297187420455442012-06-16T15:13:43.997-04:002012-06-16T15:13:43.997-04:00To clarify my position on the role of natural sele...To clarify my position on the role of natural selection on morality, I believe it is for the most part useful in the debate only as an explanation for human (and animal) behaviour, including our gut instincts, knee-jerk responses, sense of guilt. This doesn't make our evolved responses 'lies' or mean we should dismiss them. In fact, it probably generally is not a good idea to ignore our evolved feelings - they serve us well most of the time, in the same way our pain receptors alert us to problems.<br /><br />But I also reckon that many of our evolved responses can be unhealthy - racism on a knee-jerk level, or negative reactions to the disfigured or crippled or ill - these most likely are evolved. At one point in our history they helped us, but not any more.<br /><br />But evolution is useful for explaining the phenomena of much of our behaviour. See my analogy about the bilingual history class (I think that was on this thread). It doesn't, however, tell us how we SHOULD behave, except unless you're talking about a moral quandary and one of the considerations is an actions effect on the human race as a whole. But that's not the same thing.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-38452435667797073272012-06-16T15:03:44.326-04:002012-06-16T15:03:44.326-04:00Chase, we can extrapolate outwards from ourselves ...Chase, we can extrapolate outwards from ourselves to a group and then to the species as a whole or indeed any sentient beings - it's illogical to value my own life and those of my friends, family and their friends etc, but to shut off this valuing at a certain point. I can empathise with others, see that their needs, desires, feelings and capacity for happiness or pain, is similar or the same as my own, and therefore figure they deserve the same considerations and rights as myself.<br /><br />Regarding concepts as fairness, it's quite possible they are emerging properties of social interactions. This might not make them 'objective', but that doesn't stop them being real on a certain level, or stop them bring concepts that all social interacting beings can understand.<br /><br />I notice by the way that by inherent value you mean valuable to God. This doesn't seem inherent to me - it suggests that if God hypothetically stopped valuing you, you'd stop being valuable. This isn't 'inherent value', it's contingent, as you're saying it's subject to God valuing you. Inherently valuable in the way you seem to mean would surely mean it was valuable regardless of whether a God existed or not?Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-83236286848512373182012-06-15T15:54:20.460-04:002012-06-15T15:54:20.460-04:00I stop being valuable if someone else doesn't ...I stop being valuable if someone else doesn't value me? That doesn't follow. Diamonds don't stop being valuable just because you can find me someone who is indifferent to them. Anything valued by someone by definition has value.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-60562068739207988582012-06-15T07:39:18.775-04:002012-06-15T07:39:18.775-04:00Continued from previous comment...
Who is going a...Continued from previous comment...<br /><br />Who is going against the law of non contradiction?<br /><br />And what about those who struggle with depression and thoughts of suicide? Do these people still have value even if they do not value themselves?<br /><br />I truly hope that you clarify your position a little more for me, so that our discussion can continue.<br /><br />Respectfully.Chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00320120398609061987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-71465003395824247152012-06-15T07:37:01.930-04:002012-06-15T07:37:01.930-04:00Hello again Andrew,
Sorry, this is just assertion...Hello again Andrew,<br /><br /><i>Sorry, this is just assertion and, I believe, question begging. You explain his authority over us by defining him as having a quality 'x' that basically means 'he has authority over us'. That doesn't answer the question.</i><br /><br />Actually, I made no assertion. Notice I said <b>if</b> the Christian God exists. But regardless, I want to address something more pressing.<br /><br />You asked me, based upon <b>my</b> Christian worldview, where the obligation comes from. I then stated that it comes from God who is a moral being (righteous, loving, just, merciful, gracious, compassionate, etc. I did not think I had to define what moral meant. I apologize.) with transcendent, ultimate authority over his creation. This is how Christians define God. And this makes sense of our moral obligations because only a perfectly moral, supernatural being can have the authority to hold us to those obligations. You then proceeded to tell me, a <b>Christian</b>, that I cannot define who the <b>Christian</b> God is.<br /><br />We are not arguing over definitions of worldviews. We are arguing which worldview, however they are defined, makes the most sense of our moral obligations. I provided you with my worldview and why it makes sense of our moral obligations. You have yet to do either as you never clarified which obligation you were referring to or provided an answer to the question of where the obligation (whichever one you were referring to) comes from under your worldview. Our discussion will quickly end for the reasons above.<br /><br /><i>I don't know, but either way my argument didn't rest on them being self-evident truths.</i><br /><br /><b>Yes, it does.</b> You stated:<br /><br /><i>Regarding the meanings or right and wrong, survival of the species are only tangental to their meaning. The concepts</i> [based upon the previous sentence, I assume by <i>concepts</i> you mean <i>the meanings of right and wrong</i>] <i><b>rest</b> on axioms</i> [self-evident truths] <i>of fairness and shared values.</i><br /><br />So, again I ask, are you saying that fairness and values are self-evident truths? Concepts that humans and all other species discover? Concepts that are not affected by the opinions or actions of any species?<br /><br />Also, your first sentence affirms what you have been saying: That the meanings of right and wrong are only slightly connected to survival/natural selection. So, does something else outside of natural selection also contribute to what right and wrong mean? If so, what is it? This is the same as the question I asked before about explaining to me how morality is anything other than survival. Which is not a strawman for you are claiming survival/natural selection only partly plays a role in the meaning of morality.<br /><br /><i>I don't see that you've shown that God existing makes any difference to the concept of inherent value either way.</i><br /><br />I never said God’s existence keeps us from understanding the concept of inherent value. In my first comment I defined inherent value and then stated in my next comment that if God does not exist then <b>nothing</b> has inherent value. And I never said humans have inherent value. Each human is valuable to God and therefore each human has value regardless of what any other human says or does.<br /><br />Finally, if the Christian God exists he certainly has the ability to have value in and of himself in the same way that you seem to think you have value in and of yourself (inherent value) just by you saying that you have value. But of course I am assuming that this is your position. Please clarify for me whether or not you are holding that you have inherent value and also whether or not you agree with my definition of inherent value.<br /><br /><i>I don't need anyone else to make me valuable. I can value myself. If I value myself then, be definition, I am valuable. If you deny that then you'll come against the law of non contradiction!</i><br /><br />You value yourself, therefore you are valuable. Someone else does not value you, therefore you are not valuable.Chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00320120398609061987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-77170319462087996442012-06-14T06:33:05.571-04:002012-06-14T06:33:05.571-04:00"Because there's an oughtness about behav..."Because there's an oughtness about behavior that we can feel that actually precedes the behavior itself. It's not a behavior pattern, but an internal compulsion that compels us to choose certain behaviors--to do what's right--even though this moral incumbency can be denied or disobeyed. If the moral element is prior to the behavior, then it can't be the behavior itself."<br /><br />You could say that the above is no different in that respect to other compulsions we have; eg to eat, to sleep, or lustful feelings. These can also be restrained, and they are also prior to the behaviour. None of them are 'ways of acting' either. If you 'grant for the sake of argument' that certain ways of acting evolved, then it doesn't seem contradictory to also grant that compulsions evolved that lead to those 'ways of acting'. <br /><br />We have a choice whether to act on any of our compulsions, but feeling a strong compulsion to do something certainly makes us more likely to do it.<br /><br />None of this affects your question here: "But does self-preservation truly capture what we mean when we say a thing is moral", but it does address your objection about the compulsion preceding the behaviour.<br /><br />You can say that a compulsion to do something doesn't make it moral, but that is true regardless of whether one believes the compulsion is an evolved one or placed in us by an intelligent third-party.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-29302964614386915032012-06-13T08:16:09.673-04:002012-06-13T08:16:09.673-04:00"If the Christian God exists then mankind has..."If the Christian God exists then mankind has an obligation to him for he is a moral being with transcendent, ultimate authority over his creation"<br /><br />Sorry, this is just assertion and, I believe, question begging. You explain his authority over us by defining him as having a quality 'x' that basically means 'he has authority over us'. That doesn't answer the question. It is the same as the old joke of explaining how a sleeping pill works by making reference to its 'dormative qualities'.<br /><br />You use the word 'moral' but say that the word only makes sense when related to God's standard. Therefore I don't really see what meaning it has to explain his authority by reference to him being a 'moral being'. What does that actually mean?<br /><br />Again, whence the authority? <br /><br />[Alternatively, if you're saying that it simply naturally, axiomatically, follows that any being who created us would obviously deserve to have authority over us, then you're referring to a standard or axiom EXTERNAL to this being, perhaps similar to property laws. <br /><br />If such a standard or axiom exists EXTERNAL to this being, then a moral system exists with or without this being's existence. I'm putting this all in square brackets because I'm 95% certain this isn't the argument you were making.]<br /><br />"So, to clarify what you are saying, fairness and values are self-evident truths? Concepts that humans and other species discover?"<br /><br />I don't know, but either way my argument didn't rest on them being self-evident truths.<br /><br />"If God does not exist then, yes, the definition of inherent value that I posited is incoherent"<br /><br />I don't see that you've shown that God existing makes any difference to the concept of inherent value either way. If our value is contingent on your God's existence then you've made it conditional and therefore not inherent.<br /><br />"For only God can have value in and of himself (inherent value)."<br /><br />Who says and how so?<br /><br />"What I get from what you are saying, (please correct me if I am mistaken), is that there is nothing that has inherent value. Everything gets its value from something else. If so, then humans only have value because other humans establish that they have value. That seems very dangerous to me."<br /><br />I forgive you, for that's not QUITE what I was saying. I don't need anyone else to make me valuable. I can value myself. If I value myself then, be definition, I am valuable. If you deny that then you'll come against the law of non contradiction!Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-21098084549743459132012-06-12T10:01:24.622-04:002012-06-12T10:01:24.622-04:00Hi Andrew,
I hope you had an enjoyable weekend. I...Hi Andrew,<br /><br />I hope you had an enjoyable weekend. It is good to get back into the discussion. Again, your quotes are in italics.<br /><br /><i>where does the obligation come from if there is a God?</i><br /><br />Which obligation are you referring to? Man’s obligation to each other or man’s obligation to God? If the Christian God exists then mankind has an obligation to him for he is a moral being with transcendent, ultimate authority over his creation. And if the Christian God exists then mankind has an obligation to each other because God has placed value upon mankind. I pose the same question to you. Where does the obligation (whichever obligation you are referring to) come from if there is no god?<br /><br /><i>Valuable means it has value to someone or something. The concept you forward of 'inherent value' does not appear to be a coherent one. How can you describe 'value' be an essential quality of a thing without making any reference to a person or thing that it has value to? Even if it is to God that the thing has value, that is not 'inherent value' - you're still making the value contingent on something else, even if it is a deity.</i><br /><br />If God does not exist then, yes, the definition of inherent value that I posited is incoherent. For only God can have value in and of himself (inherent value). What I get from what you are saying, (please correct me if I am mistaken), is that there is nothing that has inherent value. Everything gets its value from something else. If so, then humans only have value because other humans establish that they have value. That seems very dangerous to me.<br /><br /><i>Regarding the meanings or right and wrong, survival of the species are only tangental to their meaning. The concepts rest on axioms of fairness and shared values. Other higher primates grasp these concepts, without being able to explain them or rationalise them. </i><br /><br />So, to clarify what you are saying, fairness and values are self-evident truths? Concepts that humans and other species discover? This would mean that things are fair or valuable regardless of human opinion and action. Regardless of the action of <b>any</b> species. <br /><br /><i> Saying it comes down to understanding of species survival is a strawman that I believe has already been dealt with.</i><br /><br />First off, in our original discussion of morality found <a href="http://www.truthbomb.blogspot.com/2012/02/article-ghosts-for-atheists-by-robert.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, I stated that morality is founded upon or, as you put it, “comes down to”, survivial and Geoffrey agreed. Second, in this comment string on May 7th, I asked Geoffrey the following: “You hold that the morality developed under biological evolution is truly moral. I hold that the morality developed under biological evolution is survival and that it is only labeled as morality by humans. I am having difficulty understanding how morality is anything other than survival. Could you please explain it to me?” How is asking this question a strawman? <br /><br />If you follow this comment string from the date above you will see that this was <b>not</b> dealt with. To give an example of how ‘morality’ is more than survival, Geoffrey provided a story of a man working hard and saving until he was able to plant a garden which became a prospering business and the business’ investments resulted in libraries, museums, etc. I then provided a story of a man stealing, killing, and using others to plant his garden and develop his business. This business’ investments also resulted in libraries, museums, etc. I then asked, essentially, which is ‘morality’? He has yet to respond to this latest comment. <br /><br />I think I effectively demonstrated from the story I provided that the fact that ‘morality’, under biological evolution, is based upon survival it is unable to be anything more than survival. This ‘morality’ is just a label. A label we can apply to anything that advances the survival of humanity.<br /><br />Regards.Chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00320120398609061987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-52955962093620653382012-06-09T16:52:14.978-04:002012-06-09T16:52:14.978-04:00More to the point, I didn't defend the idea th...More to the point, I didn't defend the idea that sexual attraction evolved simply because it wasn't necessary to my point whether you accepted it or not. I was making an analogy or comparison to aid my explanation of where I thought you misunderstood biologists' view of evolved moral behaviour.<br /><br />To whit: saying they believe a man consciously thinks 'action x would damage my species' is a strawman in the same way as saying they believe a man consciously thinks 'Wow, those hips and mammary glands would make that woman a great mate for me to boost the species with!'.<br /><br />Whether it not you accept these are evolved emotions is neither here nor there - you can still accurately understand what the argument is.<br /><br />That said, I'd be interested in how you believe natural selection would NOT favour a greater over a lesser attraction to the opposite sex in a species.<br /><br />As a final point, there are whole books you can read on the subject - Jared Diamond's 'Why is sex fun' is a good one to start on.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-67815581963823221392012-06-09T13:39:52.564-04:002012-06-09T13:39:52.564-04:00"First off, what does this have to do with th..."First off, what does this have to do with the discussion at hand? The discussion is whether or not morals evolved. Second, this is simply an assertion not an argument."<br /><br />I didn't realise that this commonly accepted idea NEEDED to be argued any more. <br /><br />I was using the evolution of sexual desire as an analogy to help explain about moral feelings.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-58292878271188951792012-06-09T05:20:26.427-04:002012-06-09T05:20:26.427-04:00Regarding the meanings or right and wrong, surviva...Regarding the meanings or right and wrong, survival of the species are only tangental to their meaning. The concepts rest on axioms of fairness and shared values. Other higher primates grasp these concepts, without being able to explain them or rationalise them. Saying it comes down to understanding of species survival is a strawman that I believe has already been dealt with.<br /><br /> We have shared concepts of many other things - beauty, good art, food quality - that we cannot necessarily ground in 'objective' terms, it doesn't render the concepts incoherent.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-73674734679114503112012-06-09T05:14:13.657-04:002012-06-09T05:14:13.657-04:00Valuable means it has value to someone or somethin...Valuable means it has value to someone or something. The concept you forward of 'inherent value' does not appear to be a coherent one. How can you describe 'value' be an essential quality of a thing without making any reference to a person or thing that it has value to? Even if it is to God that the thing has value, that is not 'inherent value' - you're still making the value contingent on something else, even if it is a deity.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-33756194904740266992012-06-08T19:39:52.664-04:002012-06-08T19:39:52.664-04:00Hello Mr. Ryan,
Questions for Greg Koukl should b...Hello Mr. Ryan,<br /><br />Questions for Greg Koukl should be directed <a href="http://www.str.org/site/PageServer?pagename=abt_contact" rel="nofollow">here.</a><br /><br />RespectfullyChadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449550583016519343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-117970412806233818.post-83225019874863705442012-06-08T15:00:54.849-04:002012-06-08T15:00:54.849-04:00Regarding your final question, one might as well s...Regarding your final question, one might as well say that one cannot call any action good or bad, merely 'in accordance or not with God's nature'.<br /><br />BTW: Not sure if any of my recent posts have actually posted successfully/cleared. If this is the fifth consecutive one awaiting approval then I'm sorry. If this is the first, then I'll post more when it actually appears.Andrew Ryannoreply@blogger.com